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0:01 - Introduction

1:12 - Journey to UD: Sports

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Keywords: Baseball; Basketball; Football; Football Coach; Ken; Neighbor

5:51 - Impression of UD

6:35 - Race and Diversity: Freshman Class

7:50 - Journey to UD: Jones and Kent

7:53 - Impression of UD: First Visit

9:05 - Race and Diversity: Many Whites Who Had Never Seen or Roomed With a Person of Color

11:40 - Journey to UD: Racine

14:48 - While at UD: Major

15:24 - Impression of UD: Welcomed

15:25 - John Knox Coit

17:20 - Race and Diversity: Dubuque

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Keywords: 3 Families; Hair Cut; John Luis; N-Word; No African American Presence

21:24 - Dorm Life

22:26 - While at UD: Organziations

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Keywords: Basketball; Football, Baseball; Fraternity; University of Dubuque-Phi Omicron Fraternity

24:23 - Social Life

24:38 - Conflict

27:33 - Dating

28:35 - Social Life: TGIF

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Keywords: Drinks; East Dubuque; Jukebox; Underground

35:55 - Religious Course

37:11 - Academics: Chapel

54:05 - Love Life: First Wife

55:00 - Race and Diversity: South and North

61:56 - Social Life: Loras

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Keywords: All Males; Dating; Women Dormitory Hours

64:26 - McCormick Memory


Jim Martin October-28-2014


Brian Hallstoos: Alright. Well welcome, this is the 27, 28th day of October 2015, 2014. Wow, let's try this again. October 28, Tuesday of 2014 and I am Brian Hallstoos and I am sitting with, maybe we can go around the room and you can introduce yourself.

James Martin- My name is James Martin. I live in Madison, Wisconsin and I am a former student of the University of Dubuque.

Dustin Acre: I am Dustin Acre I am also from Madison, Wisconsin.

Gordon Muscle- Hi, my name Is Gordon Muscle.

Sharon Bore- My name is Sharon Bore.

Garrison Grubb- My name is Garrison Grubb

Christian Klaucheck- My name is Christian Klaucheck

BH- And so we are here today to hear Mr. Martins story about his experience at 1:00UD and to get all the students ask questions as well but maybe I will start us off with just kind of a broad question. What brought you to UD in the first place?

JM- What brought me here, I think ostensibly I came here to play sports and to get an education. I was, but I did, I came to play football. I happen to be a basketball player in high school and I was a baseball player in high school, so I played all 3 when I, here. I did intend to get an education, which I did get, but I think that's more than anything else what brought me here. I actually heard of the University of Dubuque because there was a student here he was a year older, he was a year ahead of me in high school, but we had lived across 2:00the street from each other, really kind of kitty corner for a kind of a formative part of my early childhood and so I knew a gentleman by the name of Kent Cushionberry. He was going to school here. How he found the University of Dubuque, I have no idea, but the other part of it was the football coach at the time, here, went to my high school. He was from Racine, Wisconsin, where I am from Racine, Wisconsin and there was a connection there and there was kind of a push there because his father was kind of at every sporting event. So that was someone else that was kind of pushing me to come to school here.

BH- And it is more football than the other sports that you played when you were here- ("Jim interrupts Brian")

JM- Actually I am a child of the 50s and in the 50s baseball was king. Football was before ESPN and I really wanted to be a baseball player, but I knew when I 3:00came here that I was gonna play football. So and that's where my name is in the record books is in football not baseball. That, the baseball part ended fairly abruptly and soon-

BH- Was that an injury or what ended the baseball?

JM- My arm wasn't strong enough and I didn't hit well enough to play at a professional level and that puts it at a succinct in now it just you can play well up until you get to a certain point and when you try to move to that next level they let you know whether or not they think that you are good enough or not.

BH- Well but you played through college. You play when your- ("Jim interrupts Brian")

JM: I did.

BH: all through college, okay.

JM- I did.

BH- and maybe you just mention some in the record books here. What did you play and how well did you play when you were here?

JM- Well that's debatable how well I played ("Background laughing"). No, not 4:00really. There is no bragging we, we did not fare very well until my high school quarter got kicked out of the air force academy and came here and he was pretty good and so then we started to win but I played, I still, I have a record, I guess I'll just say it I've got a record that's 51 years old. That's still on the books and the other one will be 50 years when it gets to 2017 and I don't think that there is anyone close to getting to, getting close to them.

Student- Wow, what is that right there?

JM- I have a, I intercepted 8 passes in 63, 8 in 64 and I have a total of 24 and I don't think anyone is close to the 24 there might be someone who may be close to the 8, but not the 24.

Student- That's pretty awesome.


Student- Were you corner back or safety?

JM- I was a safety.

Student- That is pretty impressive.

BH -- Some great questions.

("students laughing")Student- I guess in general what was the campus kind of like at that time?

JM- Well the campus was the quadrangle and it wasn't until I think I might have been a senior when the two dorms down by the football field they opened and we thought that was in the boondocks. There was no way an upper classman would walk that far for class from there football field to the quadrangle. It was very small actually this school was smaller than my high school. I had 523/524 kids in my high school and my graduating class. We had a 3-year high school at that 6:00point in time and there was somewhat over 1600-1700 students when I came here I, we'd be hard pressed, I think to get to 650 and that would be counting the townies and everybody. So it was quite small. The only thing I think that was helpful my freshman class had probably 12 African Americans in it 12 or 13 which far exceeded the 4 that were on campus in the other 3 grades. I think there might have been one senior African American female. There was a junior, an 7:00African American female, and there were 2 males one being Kent Cushionberry who I came to school with. The other being Dozier Jones who you've talked about and then we had about, I better look again but it was 12 to 15 that were, that was kind of the largest group that the school have had of up until then at least in that district.

Student- In what year did you enter?

JM- I entered in September or, yeah it was really September back then we didn't start school in August, September 1963 it was probably a little less than 4 weeks after Dr. Martin Luther King's I had a dream speech.

Student- You mentioned Cushionberry right?

("Jim Martin agrees")

Student- He was the one that told you about University of Dubuque?

JM- Yes, he was here. Yes.


Student- When he was telling you about the school, did he tell you about then environment? Was that a reason why you came here towards African Americans or did he kinda just talk about the sports and that was what lead you here?

JM- No he was going to school here over the summer Dozier Jones went home 'cause Dozier was from the Atlanta area he went home with Kent for the summer I got to know him. I was looking around thinking what am I gonna do and decided well you know I'll take a visit and he was, he was very positive so I decided yeah I will apply and see what happens. And I got here it was small, quaint and I liked it. I'm not sure whether or not I would have fared real well on a real larger campus, but yeah know I don't have to worry about that anymore. I didn't go to a 9:00large school; I went to a small school.

Student- How did the racial demographics here compare to the high school you came from and when you came here to UD did you feel like you were a part of the campus or did you feel like you stuck out as an African American, how did you, do you remember your first experience on campus?

JM- As I told you before, I probably came here and my coming is not at all unusual compared to the other people that you're gonna call. I came from an integrated high school. I lived in Racine, Wisconsin and when I say integrated everybody, I had an argument one night with a lady who thought that Racine park was a 95% African American well we probably had 2% or 3% ("Students laughing and 10:00talking") Yeah a real discrepancy. Did we have a few kids on the football team? Always. Did we have a few kids on the basketball team? Yes, and sometimes more, more started than normal, but I, this was not unusual for me coming into an integrated situation. What was unusual is that there were many whites in the 60s who had never seen, some of them who had never seen and certainly had never gone to school with anyone of color. Had never lived in a dorm with anyone, and certainly some had never had roommates. Now all those things were not unusual 11:00for me. Not that I had a lot of white roommates, but I played on, I played on baseball teams where I was the only African American and so when we traveled I naturally had a white roommate so that wasn't an unusual thing although my freshman year here I had an African American roommate it was Colby Sadler from Waterloo, Iowa. So that wasn't, that wasn't an issue so coming here wasn't new to me. I guess I could probably say, I am 69 years old. I have never had an African American teacher and I've been to the University of Indiana and the University of Wisconsin an addition to here and not in any class that I've ever 12:00had with the exception I probably in junior high school I probably had a substitute teacher 'cause we did have one in Racine at that time. Racine had no full time African American teachers until the period which I was in here in Dubuque between '63 and then '67 they hired there first teachers and I went back and was a teacher in the Racine unified school district from 1967- 1970.

Student- What class were you teaching?

JM- I taught physical education and I had all you know 10,11, and 12 I had a 3-year high school.

Sharon Bore- And the classroom here, did you ever have any experiences with professors who maybe treated you differently at UD?

JM- Uh...(pauses) I probably can't put my finger on any specific incident, it's 13:00not to say that I don't know one person fairly intimately who thinks that she had an adverse situation, but I really can't say that anyone treated me differently, negatively. Did I have positive experiences? You bet, but I can't really say that you know, I got to B in this class and I should have deserved an A and the only reason why I got a B is 'cause I was African American. That I can lay my finger to one of those.

Student- So just to clarify there was no instructors on UD at that time that were of any color?

JM- My first year here, no. I don't believe my second year here that there were any. We did get an African American instructor I think when I was a junior and 14:00he was still here when I was a senior. I was, the guy's name was Merungy if I was an African student that an African professor was not an African American wasn't you know wasn't American born, but I had no instructors here that were African American.

BH- Starting with Professor Merungy, do you remember what he taught?

JM- I wanna say he taught philosophy, but I didn't bring a yearbook that would show him in here. I know he is not in this one 'cause this is my freshman year one. I thought most of your questions would be about my freshman year, but maybe not.

SB- What did you study?

JM- I'm a physical education major. I started out in history. ("Students Laughing") I changed. I won't explain why I changed, but I did change. Changed 15:00early on and have a physical education undergrad degree and a law degree.

Student- You won't explain why you changed?

JM- Nah, it's alright.

("Students laughing")

JM- We won't go there, this year.

Student- So did you feel welcome when you came to UD the first year?

JM - I did. There was never a point where I didn't feel welcomed. As I said the football coach was from my high school. I had talked with him extensively before. That probably a lot of people thought there was a lot of favoritism my way since he had gone to my high school and I still see him he, I mean he is 85-86 years old he moved back to Racine after traveling around and I still see 16:00him so from that stand point I had no adverse effects. John Knox Coit was a philosophy instructor and he was kind of very interested in athletics. He was a Ph.D doc but he dispensed aspirin after all football games like he was an MD doc but a great gentleman who at one point I think he became the dean of the college. Not sure if that was while I was here or after he left and came back, but just a, just an excellent person who had an interest in me. Was such that I 17:00even named my son bares his middle name or my sons middle name is Knox which I thought was kind of definitive of John Knox Coit.

Student- Did you find like the same kind of welcome in Dubuque the town as a whole than you did in UD?

JM- The town was different. We were up here on the hill and we were kind of in a, in a-in a different world. I always thought Dubuque was 60,000 but I am sure that it wasn't back in the 60s. Dubuque had 3 African American families in town. They lived, I can't remember if its 9th street going down, I think its 9th 18:00street going down. If you went out and took University Ave. and bared left and went down the hill and when you get down the hill there's a V in the road those 3 families, there was a big billboard that was up there those 3 families lived behind those billboards and some pretty difficult housing but those were the only 3 so there was no African American presence here. I had a car after my sophomore year and for kind of Sunday afternoon giggles we would look in the paper and see where houses either for rent and we would go and take a look at 19:00them and see how would people would shudder when you knocked on the door. So it was very difficult or different. We didn't have to many issues other than you know we walked downtown to go to the movie theater, the movie theater in the 60s was down town on Main St. there you'd come back and you know you'd have some hooligans who would drive by and yell the N word at you and stuff as your walking back up the street, but by the time we got back and got a car and then this all happened early on when I didn't have a car 'cause otherwise I would have been in my car. You couldn't find those folks. But uh, that is really the only issues that I really kind of saw in the town that were distasteful. When I first got here I didn't know anybody, didn't even know the other freshman and I 20:00did decide there was a barber, I needed a haircut and I realized when the guy made the first move that he had never ever had cut an African Americans hair and so that was the last time I went to a barber. We finally once all the students cause the football players we all got here early, we all had to come earlier. Once all the students came we found that a freshman name John Lewis who could cut hair, so John Lewis cut my hair for the next four years when I was in school. I mean you know you, and that's probably the same way here you find somebody who can cut hair and that's guys got a business and I've got a friend who I play golf with every day in Madison and that's what he did at Jackson State in Jackson, Mississippi in the 50s. He was the barber and so every school 21:00has one.

Student- So um, I guess we got kind of a good idea what it was with instructors but as far as the dorms were, were there any conflicts that arose because of color or anything like that?

JM-You know, I don't, I don't remember any conflicts in the dorm as it relates to color.

SB- Where did you live? Which dorm?

JM- I lived in severance up on the second floor probably right at this corner, at this end. Like I said I had an African American roommate. The only conflict we had is that I was always used to my mom coming into my room and picking up my clothes up off the floor and washing them and the guy I roomed with was a neat freak and so, you know, he decided after a couple weeks we have to have a conversation turned out that I also learned that if I threw my clothes on the 22:00floor when I wanted to wear them again guess where they were, they were still on the floor so I kind of changed my habits it was a part of you know the time management that you learn in college and you learn you gotta take care of your own, your own things if you don't, you know your moms not gonna come help you anymore, it's over.

Student- So were you involved in any organizations here?

JM- I was, not very, when you say organizations, unlike Mr. Stubblefield who was you know class president he was kind of a civic guy. I was not that inclined cause I wasn't here that often. Every time the football team left town, I left town. The basketball team left town, I left town. The baseball team left town, I left town. So that was my, I am, I did join a fraternity my freshman year, was 23:00active in that.

Student- Which one?

JM- I was a Phi Omicron.

Student- Ok, I'm an A.

JM- You're an A, okay. They were still, they were in business back then and you know kind of back in our time the Phi Omicron were all jocks, primarily jocks. That kind of, that's a simple thing that changes over and over again, but those are probably the two organizations that I, you know the two that things that I did the most of. I guess I would say this about, you know, whether or not we had hadn't had any conflict. The one thing that I will allude to and I wasn't a card player till I came to college although I did learn very quickly how to play Bid 24:00Wiz, and probably most black kids know how to play Bid Wiz and most white kids don't and certainly the kids from the south all knew how to play Bid Wiz and so we did, in the early years, we did eat together. The African American students and we did go down in to the underground area below Peters Commons and we played cards right after dinner until about 7 o'clock or whenever everybody took off to go study. John Knox Coit did come to us. I remember specifically he came to us and said that people were concerned that one that all the African American students ate together and why was it, was it whether or not we felt unwelcomed 25:00or we thought we needed to stay in a group and he wanted to know why we all in the underground all stuck together because we were all, we all were around kind of a central table, there was one table, and we would play rise and fly which mean if you win you stay, if you lose you're out of here and if someone, the game kind of, you two may know, that if you take all the tricks it's called a Boston and if someone has a hand that they know they are gonna take all the trick it is, as my friend Dozier Jones taught us how to do it when you put your cards down, you put them down in such a way that your knuckles hit and everybody knows, here we go and so we made a lot of noise and people were somewhat 26:00concerned about it. So he asked us you know why did we do it. We said well we are the only ones know how to play Bid Wiz and nobody else has asked us. So we did, 'cause we had a number of kids out of New York who weren't afraid of African Americans and weren't standoffish and so you know if hey, they want to play tell em to come on over and we will give them a lesson. Before we start taking their money at night. We didn't play for money down in the Student Union, but we did play for money in some of the, in some of our rooms. So you know that part of it we had to kind of explain what, you know, what the dynamic was one we didn't feel ostracized, two we ate together 'cause you know we wanted to, and three we played cards cause we were only play Bid Wiz. Did I know how to play 27:00bridge? Yes, because I had played with my friends and played some other card games with guys that I have played ball with, but they were playing Bid Wiz so I played Bid Wiz and that's what we did. But that part of it is the only time that I think anybody ever really ask us about how we were doing socially and we did well socially. Did we, did African Americans date whites as a rule? No, not much. You know, in the 60s in '63 Catholics didn't date protestants. Protestants didn't date Catholics and that was the way the world was and Blacks didn't date or marry whites. Loving v. Virginia wasn't until 1967 that was the first time 28:00the Supreme Court says it wasn't illegal for blacks to marry whites. So I mean it was kind of that time change, we were in kind of the middle of it and so there wasn't much of an issue. Did we go out with whites? Yeah, we did. Nobody ever said anything to us. You know, I have no idea what was said in the dorms you know about it, but you know it happened.

BH - In addition to Bid Wiz what were some of the other activities on a Friday night comes and your looking to go have a good time, what comes to mind?

JM - As a general rule, there wasn't a whole lot of social function going on. We made, what is the underground kind of a social part of it. I happened to, what I 29:00think of gone to school during the, the hay day of Motown. Every week almost and we got them later than anyone else. There was a new Supreme's hit, Four Top's hit, Impression's hit, so we kept trying to keep getting the jukebox updated so that we can hear the latest, the latest on the jukebox.

Student- Jukebox, what is the most common-

JM- Down, yeah in the underground down there that was the jukebox. There was also a black and white television and kind of, I would call them north, it was kind of a northern room, but for the most part on Friday nights people were down in the lower levels in Peter Commons. I don't know what time they kind of lowered the lights and people would dance and do things. Other than that, it was 30:00really kind of fraternity driven. Fraternity would rent a large room at one of the hotels. Principally, it's not there anymore it used to be Dodge Street that you would come across the Illinois bridge that whole area now which is kind of a green space used to be all commercial and it was, everything commercial. There was a Holiday inn there that I remember having a number of those there. Or we on occasion would drive across into Wisconsin because Grant County in Wisconsin was an 18-year-old county were you could drink beer at 18. Iowa was 21 and, so we would go over there if we were gonna have a party. You have to remember 1963 if 31:00you got caught with any alcohol you got sent home, for the most part.

BH- On your breath or otherwise-

JM- Well they really, and usually they had to catch you. They had to catch the bottles somewhere or whatever it was and usually you could ditch them when home. One of them, in East Dubuque at that time was call it kind of a shot gun street where every building was a bar and they had go-go dancers and stuff and well if you got caught and if you're under age and got caught there which was almost seemed like every Saturday night, somebody was running through the dorms saying so and so got picked up in East Dubuque. We need 50 dollars. ("Students laughing") So they would go through and get a dollar from like 50 people and go 32:00back over to pay their fine to get em out and hope like heck that administration didn't find out. You didn't, what you didn't wanna have happen is that administration have to go over and get you because if that happened you were probably gonna say bye-bye to you.

Student-Were there instances of people drinking in the dorms? Or--that you can think of?

JM-Well that' do you answer that? ("Everyone laughing") I have heard, I have heard that people drank in the dorm. I have heard at this location where Steffens Hall used to be, up on the 4th floor. On the 4th floor of Steffens was dorms basically large rooms couple people lived in 'em and there was never any 33:00screens on any of the windows, and I've heard that some of the tile shingles could be lifted and you could set a bottle outside your window and cover it up with a tile there and it would be ok.

Student-All hearsay.

JM-All hearsay. That's right. All hearsay. Word on the street.

BH-Sounds a bit like your mystery bugle.

JM-Yep, that's true.

BH-You talked a bit about John Knox Coit, were there other professors who really made an impact on your life, or administrators. Was Dr. Couchman, or President Couchman present and visible?

JM- Oh Dr. Couchman was very present and very visible; he knew your name. He 34:00talked to you in the same way I hope that Dr. Bullock talks to you when he sees you walking on campus. We all knew, and actually he lived right, right on the far end of Goldthorpe there 'bout where they've done the addition, and they did the addition they knocked down what used to be the president's house, but so he was, he was right there. Roger Woods was a religion professor who came over. He was fairly young; came over and played basketball when you know pick up games with us, very instrumental. Nice man. We had some good professors, we had some people who made you toe the line. Merle Sandon (?) who was a psychology professor, very good, excellent and coined the phrase, always as I told it to a 35:00number of people I've been in classes with, the professor was so bad he put a student to sleep and as typical professor says "would you wake up so-and-so who's sitting, right, who's sleeping" and of course Doc Stanton says "if you put them to sleep; you wake them up." I guess I would just say I had good professors, who knew who I was, who took an interest in me. And I'm so thankful for a couple religion professors who helped me get out of religion classes. That was the first telephon call I made home. "Mom, I need a bible." Because they gave you, back then, they told you what your first semester classes were gonna 36:00be. Everybody had to take Bible V which was Old Testament first semester. Second semester everybody had to take The Life and Teachings of Jesus, which was the New Testament. We had a couple professors that said if you didn't, who disagreed with the administration on taking roll but they basically said if don't come to class, you can't pass the exam 'cause you got a different exam than everybody else got. So that's how they solved the whether you're going to be in class or not, and everybody knew it, you better be there.

Student-Glad they don't do that now.


Student-Give a different exam.

JM-No, well, real different day. And I'm sure if you had Larry Terrel as your professor for Teachings of Jesus and you didn't show up and he didn't like to take roll that your father had better be a minister, or you'd better been in 37:00church, seven days, every week to pass his exam, because he would make it difficult.

BH-Was chapel a requirement during--

JM-Chapel was a requirement every Friday for--

BH-For all the students or just the first-year students or---?

JM-Everyone. Everyone went to chapel on Friday about 10:30 in the morning.

BH-Where was it held?

JM-At Westminster Church. They took roll.

BH-It was the same structure that's up there now? Or same church?

JM-Pretty basically the same structure that was there. And it seated everyone. Everyone who wasn't cuttin' chapel. (Laughter). But it was a requirement.

Student-I know you said it wasn't that much of a change for you, coming here to 38:00an integrated school, but as opposed to a lot of other Black students. You think, what kind of effect did that have?

JM-I think, you gonna talk to Ozell Hudson. Who's talking to Ozell? You are? Ok. You've got Dozier Jones. Whoever gets Justina Mitchell.

Student -- I have Alice Stubblefield.

JM -- You have Alice Stubblefield. It's gonna be the same for her too. Every kid from the south, will never have had a white teacher. Every kid from the south, probably will never have gone to a school with any white students. So for them it's going to be completely different. I think Ozell will probably tell you he probably never had any meaningful contact with anyone who was white before he 39:00came here. And I think you'll find, for those kids who came from the south, they didn't have a choice as to where they came to school. They were told where they were going to go to school. I think you'll find that to be true. And so their experience is going to be completely different. I think you'll find the kids that came out of Georgia rode in the back of the bus all the way here, 'cause they couldn't ride in the front of the bus. It'll be interesting cause I don't remember having a conversation with 'em, about where they ate when the busses stopped. In '63, very difficult. '63, James Meredith integrated the University 40:00of Mississippi, and they did that, uh, with federal troops. And he stayed on campus a long time, I'm not even sure, I really don't remember whether or not if he ever graduated. He may have stayed the whole time. When they integrated University of Alabama, they did it the same way. I don't believe Charlayne Hunter-Gault who's on PBR, public radio, public television. I don't think she ever finished at Alabama. I think she said, "I can't do this anymore," and left. And I gotta think, there was a gentleman who integrated Alabama with her that went to Madison for decades. I can't think of his name right off the top of my 41:00head. He just passed away two years ago. I don't think he stayed at Alabama either, because it was such a hostile environment. So '63 was not a-- Well, it was a good year in that they were making some strides at integrating those schools, but it wasn't a thing where an African American could go to any, could go to any college in the south. I mean, I saw an article the other day, but didn't get a chance to read it, but George Wallace said, "Segregation today, segregation tomorrow, segregation forever". Not a black kid on any of their football teams in '63, no-where close. And what did I see the other day. Mississippi St., 82% of the football players are African American. And 42:00University of Mississippi, 78%. Times have changed. The question is will those young men, even though they're rootin' for 'em on a Saturday afternoon, will they be taken in and be recognized as having gone to school there in years to come. I certainly hope so cause they're making tons of money for those schools right now. Tons of money.

BH-You just mentioned Governor Wallace and just reminded me of something I learned recently, and I'm blanking on the governor's name now. He's a Southern governor who was invited to come to Dubuque in the early 60s and, um--

JM-Ross Barnett.

BH-Yes, there he is Ross Barnett., governor of Mississippi. You were ready.

JM- No, it just happens to be in, uh, in this yearbook, and my friend Joe 43:00Stubblefield sent me. I didn't have a copy of it. He sent me a copy of it, along with the names of all the students so it's in the '64 deal.

BH-Do you remember the, this occurring? And what the response was?

JM-You know I do, and I don't. I can say if I was in town I didn't miss a convocation. These were, they called these convocations. And so we had to be there. They took roll at 'em. And I didn't-- if they took roll, I couldn't--

BH-Is that McCormick Gym?

JM--That's McCormick Gym, right. And, I mean, here's a pickett here by a kid named Howard Norris, he was a freshman when I was a freshman. It's gotta be 44:00when, at least when I was a soph--, this had to have been when I was--actually a sophomore not a freshman 'cause Howard has a Phi-O jacket on, and Howard only stayed two years. So it had to be in the spring of '65 that Barnett was here. Uh, and-- I mean, they say here is a student body listening to Ross Barnett, but I don't, I don't see me in that crowd. Now I could be in a different section, um, where he's at but I don't think that that's really the case because this was in McCormick Gym, and these kids look like they're sitting around tables. And there would have been no tables for them to sit around. I would gather, I would bet almost that that might be a Muhammad Ali fight that was on tv that 45:00everybody's around listening to. But I don't know what it is. But yes, he was here.

BH-I wonder what the circumstances, and why Dr. Couchman--because presumably he had a reason behind this invitation, he would invite a pro-segregationist to the--

JM-I would imagine probably either from the town or some of the, what they call the board of directors, what we now call the board of trustees, probably said we should bring an alternate view because we did have a number of convocations where we have pro-integrationists who came to speak. And that happened quite frequently because that was the topic of the day. So I assumed somebody said we should probably bring a, you know, an opposing view, and certainly he was an opposing view.

Student- What was the reception like for a lot of those convocations?


JM- Um, they were, they were good and respectful. Um-- (pause) No, from my perspective the ones where they had--you know, I'm drawing a blank. I'll come up with a name here real quick-- Oh, William Sloan Coffin, who was a Freedom Rider, was a speaker, was a Presbyterian minister and had marched at Selma, came to speak. There were a number of others who came to speech, to speak, because it was kind of the topic of the day. Um, and certainly, you know, I was a freshman 47:00when Martin Luther King, excuse me, when John F. Kennedy was assassinated, and, with him being assassinated, when LBJ took over, LBJ was a southern White who had kind of a remarkable transformation that the man had made, unlike the parties today, I mean the segregationalists in the '60s were all southerners and they were Democrats. They were Dixie-crats. But they were, um, kind of um, almost a meld. And certainly, when John F. Kennedy came in, and John F. Kennedy 48:00kind of took, took the party a little further to the left on integration. It was, it was a tough mix, but after the assassination of, of Kennedy, you had LBJ as president, uh and he lasted, I think probably right until '68. But uh, in the run up to the '68 election, Bobby Kennedy was assassinated and then in um, a bit later in '68, I think Martin Luther King was assassinated. But, as a lead up, following John F. Kennedy's assassination, he shepherd through the Voting Rights Act of 1964, which was kind of an unbelievable thing for a southern, for a southern Democrat to do because they were, as a block, they were 49:00segregationalists. And I assume they were-- well they were southern Democrats because Abraham Lincoln was a Republican and they were still wanting slavery. And then, when Nixon came in, he took the southern Democrats, took them to the Republican party, and the Republican party, which had been the more liberal party, became the staunch conservative party. And so we kind of had, kind of had a flip. And so today, when people say, and my political statement here would be, when people say that the republicans are the ones that freed the slaves, it was a different Republican Party than it is today. You know, it wasn't a Conservative Party, it was a Liberal Party at that point.

BH- When you were seeing them come at a time right after the march at 50:00Washington, you're aware of these events that are taking place. To have people like the senator from Mississippi and others who are anti---did you feel, as a student, did you feel like you were kind of watching this from a distance and this was removed from your reality, or did you feel like you were a power to take action and this is a part of your experience, and your connected to what's happening elsewhere in the country? Or what was your perspective on this piece of historic changes?

JM- Well, I, I, I certainly knew the history of what was going on. Was I an active participant in, in civil rights? No. Should I have been? Probably yes. But from my vantage point in Racine, WI, I didn't see the reality of, of the situation. It almost looked like what you were seeing on TV was somewhat, not a 51:00part of your reality. It's almost the same thing as what we see in Ferguson, MO right now, is not a part of our reality, but it certainly affects what one does. I'm married to a white lady. We travel unrestricted. I know we are going to Florida next month and I'm half, almost--and we lived in Florida for about 13 months from 2001-2002. I'm almost saying I'm not going to drive in the south at night anymore for a couple of reasons. One, all the southern states have concealed carry laws. So no matter whether you get picked up for speeding or running a red light, if it happens at night, the officer is going to walk to 52:00your car with their hand on the gun or the gun drawn, because they're assuming whoever is inside has a gun just like they have. It's, it's the sad commentary on America today. When I was growing up, we were always told "when you get stopped, get out of the car, put your hands up to make sure that he knows or she knows that you don't have a weapon." Well today, they want you to stay in the car. And what happens is what happened to my brother in about 1965, driving my car, I had a Volkswagen Bug. My brother is 5'5". He got pulled over. He was going to get out of the car and in an old Volkswagen, he had to have the seat 53:00all the way up to the--as close up as it could be. And to get out of the car, he had to reach down to pull the latch to slide the seat back so he could get out the door. Well when he did that, the cop had the gun on him. And it's like wait a minute, you're pulling a gun on me. I don't have--you know, I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't do anything. But, we're in that, uh, we're in that dynamic right now where if you're African American, you have to be very careful, because a traffic stop could be a death sentence. And all they have to say is "I thought he had a gun", and they are going to walk. But that's, that's America. So, I don't know what to tell you as to what you're supposed to do when you get pulled over, because I really don't know anymore.


Student- Did you meet your wife here at the University of Dubuque?

JM- I did not. I, excuse me, I met my first wife here. I've been divorced once. I met my first wife here, yes.

Student- Was she another African American student?

JM-She was.

Student- In your class?

JM- No, she was two years younger. And she came out of New York.

Students- You mentioned a little before. You said generally the African American students dated other African American students or other students of color. Um, were there times when that changed? That was something that--

JM- Not, not really during the period of time that I was here. Over the--over the period of time that I was here I don't, I don't think that changed at all. I went out with three young ladies here and they were all African Americans. Two happened to be from New York and one happened to be from Tennessee.

Student- So during that time when all the southern desegregation and integration 55:00was the reaction that they had in the south, was that similar to how, to the reaction that it was up here in the north or was it completely opposite?

JM- It's hard--it's hard to really, really tell you. I mean I had a young lady as a, when I was a freshman walk up to me, a white young lady, walk up. She wanted to rub my skin, you know, asked whether or not is it going to rub off or what. Or can I feel it. Just to, you know, just feel and see, feel what your skin feels like. [pause] In, in retrospect, I would look and say that some of 56:00the issues that were prevalent in the south, were clearly prevalent in the north. I think you're going to find, for--for Bill Stubblefield, he never, well yes he did, he went to a Catholic, he went to Catholic grade schools, so probably he went to school with whites in Chicago. I don't believe his high school, on the far south side of Chicago had, it might, might have been some white students that go there. It's on 95th St. Not many, but I'm sure he had, I'm sure he had white teachers in the Chicago school system there. Certainly Milwaukee, WI is probably one of the most segregated communities in the country. I mean, it was probably in the 2000s before some of those schools, inner city 57:00schools, had any whites that were in them at all. Most of them were all black. So you had, you had, somwh--some of the same, the same kind of dynamic. I guess going around Iowa, I mean, there were plenty of places where people would kind of look at you strange. As a freshman, I played basketball. We went to Mt. Pleasant, IA, where Iowa Wesleyan University is or College was. We had played at William Penn the night, that night, and we were going to stay there. We went to this hotel and they had a black hitching boy outside. And I told the basketball coach, it was Chad Buckly, "I'm not staying in this hotel." And he said "Jim, you have to. We don't have any other-- cant, don't have any other place to stay 58:00and we've already paid for your room. So you've got to stay there." I said "I'm not staying there with this black hitching boy out front." I just thought that was very derogatory. He finally talked me into staying there. The next morning, I didn't eat breakfast. I took my breakfast money and went down to the hardware store, bought a can of spray paint, and he participated. Because when we left the hotel to play our game, all the basketball players, and they were all white except me, stood around the hitching post, and I painted white, we got on the bus, and then drove out. Now the next couple years that I went to, went back there, I was wondering whether or not, you know, some police officer was going to walk up to me and say "hey, we heard that you, that you did that." But, this never happened so--and I haven't been back there since 1967 I don't think.


Student- Probably a good choice


JM- Well there weren't very many places. Um--and in some places early on, you would--you would hear the n-word at games and certainly have an experience. Certainly hearing it at basketball games. In '63, as far as I know, there were two black students at Central College and one I played against in high school, so I knew him. So I talked to him, there were probably a handful, when I say a handful, maybe two handfuls, maybe 8-10 kids that went to Upper Iowa University, which is where--I mean that's in Fayette, IA. Very few at Wartburg. I know that was, actually, Wartburg was where I first heard about going to school in Iowa 60:00because the guy tried to recruit me to go to Wartburg. One of my high school classmates went there, and I didn't--I came here. Luther, maybe one. William Penn had--had--had a few, and primarily off, off the east coast. Buena Vista, I don't remember a black kid there. I do remember a Puerto Rican kid who was a really good baseball player. Matter of fact, he played for the [Minnesota] Twins.

BH- What was his name?

JM- I don't remember now; it's been a long time.


JM- No it wasn't--[INAUDIBLE]

BH- It was a few years earlier.

JM- --Kid that I played with that went to Central, who played for the [New York] Yankees, a kid named Jerry Kenney. But he played during the period when the Yankees were really bad in the '70s, they had lost their luster. Who else--?


Student- Did you mention Loras?

JM- We did not play Loras in any sport when I was in school. Loras didn't have a football team in the '60s, and we did not ever play them in basketball or anything. There was kind of--bad blood between the two schools and they didn't play each other. And I don't know if whether or not we p--we probably, at a triangle, or at another meet like in wrestling or something like that. We might end up having to wrestle somebody from Loras. But, as a general rule, we did not play Loras at all.

Student- Did you have any interaction with any Loras students?

JM- Um-- Yes? Well back in the '60s, Loras was all men. And wherever there is an 62:00all-men's school, there's an all-women's school. All women's school that was--Clarke. I never remember there being more than one black female at Clarke. There were a number of black males at Loras. They typically came over here and tried to date the black females at UD. They had hours, the same as our women had hours. Women had, on weekdays, had to be in Aitchison Hall by 10 o'clock, lockdown. They had 10 o'clock lockdown. On weekends, I think you had to be 11 or 12 o'clock and you could get a pass 'til 1 o'clock every now and then. The interaction is usually, those guys stayed on our campus so late with their 63:00girlfriends, if they found one, that they couldn't get back to school on time and so they were always trying to get me to give them a ride back so that they could make hours. The interesting thing is, if you have seen Brian Gumble on ESPN, he was at Loras in '64, probably '64 to'68.

Student[s]- Wow!

JM- I don't know him and uh, and so, I just kind of wonder whether or not he ever got in my car.


JM- He was certainly--if he did, he was certainly a lot smaller, as we all are,


JM- and he didn't look like it.

Students- Did he steal your girlfriend?

JM- No, he didn't steal your girlfriend.


JM- The girlfriends usually kicked me to the curb, but it usually wasn't for anybody else other than just me being myself.


JM- So I can't say that that ever happened. At least I don't want to admit, I 64:00won't admit that.


JM- Other questions?

BH- We, um--we're about to the end here. Is there anything that you wanted to say that hasn't been asked? Or I guess is there anything else that's burning?

Student- So John would be mad if we didn't ask the question--


Student- What is your favorite McCormick memory in the gym?

JM- Well-- [pauses] good or bad memories? When I was, well, let's see it this way. We didn't play basketball in McCormick when I was here until I was a senior. And that was when they kicked out the back wall and turned the court so 65:00it looks like the way it is today. So it was a really small, small court sideways. So, we practiced there, we never played there. We usually played--we played at Senior High School. And we had played out at West Dubuque High School, but we did not play, we didn't play basketball in there until the senior year. Favorite memories? Oh god-- I've got some nightmares in there.


Student- Those work too.


Student- Pledging?

JM- Yeah, well, we were there. We were there on Pledge Night, yeah. I'd be hard, hard pressed. I mean there're some things that happened. I can remember missing the back end of a one-on-one losing, and we ended up losing a basketball game. I can remember a kid hitting, elbowing me when I was off to the side, breaking my 66:00glasses. Hit me across the face, and the next time he came, he broke down the middle, I just threw a punch that I should have gotten kicked out of the game for.


JM- But, you know, good thing that happened?


JM- A good thing that happened, was that there was a pool down there and I had to pass the swimming class to--to--actually to get out of my major. And hey, making it from one end to the other was a good day that day, because I'm not a strong swimmer. But uh--

Student- Good memory is that you survived.


JM- Yeah, I mean. That's--that's about it. I don't, I don't really remember, because it--it is not anything like it used to be. I mean that, that gym now 67:00turns so that its 94 feet east-to-west is really kind of a new configuration. It wasn't the same as what it was when-- and today you guys have some facilities that are absolutely outstanding. Outstanding. [pauses] Any other questions? I guess what I would encourage, I would encourage those that are going to talk to some of the kids in the south, and you probably have read Paul Clayton's story of how he got here. Um-- my, my, my story is, I've said it before, it's unremarkable. Theirs, I think, is remarkable, because they really had a, had a change when they came here. First time they ever saw snow. First time they ever 68:00had a, were in a classroom with whites. The first time they ever had a white teacher. And their travel. I came, I came three hours. 180 miles. They came a lifetime. I mean they came-- Thomasville, GA is almost in Florida. To ride all the way up here not knowing where they were coming to, was different. Because none of them had ever been here before, until they got here just before the first day of class. And they'll probably tell you, Rev. Johnson told them "You're going to school at the University of Dubuque." And their parents let 'em go--which is, I think, somewhat remarkable that it happened that way. That's how 69:00it happened.

BH- Well thank you so much.

JM- Appreciate it.

Students- Thank you very much.

JM- That's all I know.